Irving Kupcinet, the son of a truck driver, was born in North Lawndale on 31st July, 1912. After graduating from the University of North Dakota he joined the Philadelphia Eagles of the National Football League. A serious shoulder injury resulted in him giving up football and in 1935 became a sports writer with the Chicago Sun-Times.
In 1948 Kupcinet was given his own column for the Chicago Sun-Times. Over the years, his column was distributed to more than 100 newspapers around the world.
In 1952 Kupcinet became a television talk show host on CBS. Five years later he replaced Jack Parr on NBC’s America After the Dark, which eventually became The Tonight Show. He also appeared in two movies produced by Otto Preminger, Anatomy of a Murder (1959) and Advise and Consent (1962). His daughter, Karyn Kupcinet, became an actress and appeared in The Ladies' Man (1961).
Irv Kupcinet knew Jack Ruby in Chicago in the 1940s. According to W. Penn Jones Irv kept in contact with Ruby and discovered that he was involved in a plot to assassinate President John F. Kennedy. Jones argues that Irv passed this information on to his daughter Karyn. In his book, Forgive My Grief, Jones reports that "a few days before the assassination, Karyn Kupcinet, 23, was trying to place a long distance telephone call from the Los Angeles area. According to reports, the long distance operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the telephone that President Kennedy was going to be killed."
Karyn Kupcinet's body was discovered on 30th November, 1963. Police estimated that she had been dead for two days. The New York Times reported that she had been strangled. Her actor boyfriend, Andrew Prine was the main suspect but he was never charged with the murder and the crime remains unsolved.
Some researchers claimed that there was a link between the death of Kupcinet and the assassination of John F. It was argued that the conspirators were trying to frighten off Kupcinet from telling what he knew. Kupcinet rejected this idea. He wrote in the Chicago Sun-Times (9th November, 1992): "The NBC Today Show on Friday carried a list of people who died violently in 1963 shortly after the death of President John F. Kennedy and may have had some link to the assassination. The first name on the list was Karyn Kupcinet, my daughter. That is an atrocious outrage. She did die violently in a Hollywood murder case still unsolved. That same list was published in a book years ago with no justification or verification. The book left the impression that some on the list may have been killed to silence them because of knowledge of the assassination. Nothing could be further from the truth in my daughter's case."
Irv Kupcinet died of pneumonia in Chicago, Illinois, on 11th November, 2003.
A telephone company executive said that 20 minutes before President Kennedy was assassinated a woman caller was overheard whispering:
"The President is going to be killed."
Ray Sheehan, manger of the Oxnard division of General Telephone Co., said the caller "stumbled into our operator's circuits," perhaps by misdialing.
Sheehan said the woman "seemed to be a little bit disturbed." Besides predicting the President's death, he said, she "mumbled several incoherent things."
Her body was found on its side, with flecks of blood on her face and a pillow. There were no notes or any indications of suicide, officers said... She had apparently been dead two or three days, sheriffs investigators said. Friends discovered her body when they came to her apartment... When her body was found, the apartment door was unlocked and the television set was on but turned down, according to the friends, Mark Goddard, actor, and his wife, Marcia. A bowl of cigarettes and a coffeepot had been knocked to the floor and a lamp turned over, they said.
A few days before the assassination, Karyn Kupcinet, 23, was trying to place a long distance telephone call from the Los Angeles area. According to reports, the long distance operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the telephone that President Kennedy was going to be killed. Two days after the assassination, Miss Kupcinet was found murdered in her apartment. The case has never been solved.
Irv Kupcinet ( Kup) was friendly with presidents, barbers and the top A-list of Hollywood. It wasn't a press agentish, fake kind of friendship. He stayed at their homes - at Jack Benny's, at Danny Thomas’s, at Joan Crawford’s. When he went on vacation, Bing Crosby might pitch in to write his column, or Mike Todd, or Betty Grable. Bob Hope spoke at the 1968 dinner honoring Kup's 25th anniversary as a columnist.
He appeared on television as early as 1945 and was a pioneering television talk show host - he started on CBS in 1952 with a late night news/interview program. In 1957, he replaced Jack Paar on NBC’s “America After the Dark,” which eventually became “The Tonight Show.” His own television program ran from 1959 to 1986, syndicated at one point to 70 stations nationwide, and featured newsmakers from Richard Nixon to Alger Hiss to Malcolm X - with whom he forged an improbable friendship.
The show was known for its spontaneity. Carl Sandburg once walked off the set in mid-broadcast, declaring he had to “wee-wee.” Radical Abbie Hoffman lit up a joint on the air and was asked by Kup to leave.
Ann Landers shocked the audience - and Kup - when, on a show that paired her with porn star Linda Lovelace, the advice columnist described in precise detail the act Lovelace was famous for.
The show won 15 local Emmys and the prestigious Peabody Award.
He was a close friend of Truman, who gave Kup and his family a personal tour of the White House while he was president. Eight years out of office, when Truman finally revealed why he had fired Gen. Douglas MacArthur during the Korean War, he gave the scoop to Kup: the general had been chaffing to attack communist China with atomic bombs...
The couple had two children, Jerry and Karyn, who was called “Cookie.” Cookie was an aspiring actress and moved to Hollywood, where she died under mysterious circumstances, probably murdered, in 1963 at the age of 22. The crime was never solved.
Kup grieved the loss of his daughter for the rest of his life. In 1966, when the Tribune syndicate asked Kup to replace the recently deceased Hedda Hopper, dangling a “mind-boggling” offer that included Hopper's Hollywood home, Kup refused, largely because he and Essee did not want to move to what he later described as “the Hollywood that had sucked our daughter into its maelstrom.”
The NBC "Today Show" on Friday carried a list of people who died violently in 1963 shortly after the death of President John F. That same list was published in a book years ago with no justification or verification.
The book left the impression that some on the list may have been killed to silence them because of knowledge of the assassination. Nothing could be further from the truth in my daughter's case. The list apparently has developed a life of its own and for "Today" to repeat the calumny is reprehensible. Karyn no longer can suffer pain by such an inexcusable mention, but her parents and her brother Jerry can.
Karyn Kupcinet 1963 death still unsolved
On Thanksgiving Day 1963, as the nation still was reeling from the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, a 22-year-old woman was killed in Hollywood. Her naked body wasn't discovered by neighbors for three days. Though still a struggling, little-known actress, her death was banner-headline news in Chicago. Her name was Karyn Kupcinet.
The daughter of longtime Chicago Sun-Times columnist Irv Kupcinet and his wife, Essee, Karyn had been working in Los Angeles for a while but was looking for the break that would catapult her to stardom.
The Tribune story on Sunday, Dec. 1, was a mess. It got her age wrong and quoted anonymous police sources "considering the possibility that the death was a suicide." Later in the story an identified detective called her death a murder and said, "The apartment was all torn up. There must've been a tremendous struggle."
Very little about the case would prove simple.
The second-day coverage, under the headline, "4 Face Quiz in Starlet's Slaying," focused on four male friends, including boyfriend Andrew Prine, and revealed that the autopsy showed she had been strangled. Prine said he had talked with her twice by phone on Wednesday, trying to patch up a "lovers' quarrel." Two of the men, who knew her through Prine, said they visited her apartment Wednesday evening and left when she turned in for the night.
Police then revealed that Prine and Kupcinet had been the target of anonymous death threats, the words written in letters cut out of magazines, as if in a pulp novel. But even that didn't lead anywhere. Two days later, the Tribune reported that police found Kupcinet's fingerprints on the sticky side of a piece of tape used to make the threatening letters. She apparently had been sending the notes to herself and Prine with the hope it would bring them back together.
Irv and Karyn Kupcinet - History
Some folks on the Internet are quite casual about where they get images. I always watermark mine so that even if someone swipes it, the url is still visible — unless someone crops it out. Here’s a case in point.
On April 25, 2012, I posted this photo (taken April 21, 2012) and several others on the L.A. Daily Mirror blog from an exhibit at the Los Angeles Police Historical Society on the Black Dahlia case. Note the watermark. I named the image elizabeth_short_nd_elvira_lapd.jpg
I took this photograph with my cellphone, shooting through the top of a glass case.
The picture was difficult to photograph because of all the glare and reflections. Notice the two lights reflected in the glass. These will be important.
I thought it would be fun to see who has swiped my picture (despite the watermark) since 2012.
Looks like it has gotten around. Here is the photo on Pinterest.
Notice that the watermark is still present.
And here it is on Monsterisland, dated January 2013
With the watermark intact.
Not so for The Horror Unlimited website in a post dated Feb. 28, 2013.
Notice the telltale reflection of the lights. Also that the watermark has been cropped out, but the name of the photo remains elizabeth_short_nd_elvira_lapd.jpg. Tacky, tacky!
We also find the image (minus the watermark) on Santa Fe Ghost and History Tours – and I must confess I can’t imagine how anybody connects Elizabeth Short to Santa Fe, N.M. Examining the image properties shows that it is dated Nov. 7, 2013, and has been renamed blackdahliaoldl_a.jpg
And finally, we find the photo I took, minus the watermark, at SteveHodel.com in a post dated April 26, 2013, named es elvira-thumb-400-3782.jpg. (There appears to be something wrong with the page, so I have used the Archive.org version of it). I hadn’t noticed until now because I never look at the website.
Again, notice the telltale reflection of the lights.
Here’s how: What you see to the right of the image … is my reflection.
I will leave it to Steve Hodel to explain how my photo ended up on his website. But it is tacky.
Karyn Kupcinet’s Former Apartment
Back in June, while reading Bill O’Reilly and Martin Dugard’s fabulous book Killing Kennedy, I was reminded of an unsolved death tied to the former president that took place in November 1963 in West Hollywood – the murder of 22-year-old actress Karyn Kupcinet in her Monterey Village apartment on North Sweetzer Avenue. Figuring that the place would fit in perfectly with my Haunted Hollywood theme, I ran right out to stalk it shortly thereafter.
Karyn Kupcinet was born Roberta Lynn Kupcinet on March 6th, 1941 in Chicago, Illinois. The only daughter of Chicago Sun-Times gossip columnist Irv Kupcinet and his wife, Essee, Karyn lived a life of privilege. There were cracks in the surface, though. Essee, a perennial stage-mom, started molding Karyn to be a star from the get-go. The youngster landed her first role at the age of 13. It was around that same time that Essee began encouraging Karyn to take diet pills. (Nice woman.) It was a habit she would continue for the rest of her life. Karyn eventually headed east to New York to try her hand at Broadway. While living in the Big Apple, she underwent several plastic surgery procedures and began abusing prescription drugs. In 1960, she moved to Hollywood (initially to an apartment on Hollywood Boulevard and then to the one at Monterey Village, where fellow stalker E.J., of The Movieland Directory website, tells me Cary Grant and Randolph Scott once lived) and landed her first onscreen appearance in the Jerry Lewis film The Ladies Man. She went on to win more bit roles in The Donna Reed Show, Hawaiian Eye, Perry Mason, and The Wide Country. It was during the filming of The Wide Country that Karyn met and began a relationship with actor Andrew Prine. When Prine broke things off in July 1963, the raven-haired starlet went a little cray and began spying on him and his new girlfriend. She also sent him threatening notes constructed from words and letters that she had cut out of magazines.
On November 27th, Karyn had dinner at the Beverly Hills home of actor Mark Goddard and his wife, Marcia Rogers Goddard, who were close with her parents. After the meal, Karyn returned to her apartment (you can see her exact unit on the Find a Death website here) and was visited by her friends Edward Rubin and Robert Hathaway. Robert was one of Prine’s roommates. (I know, sounds suspect, right?) At some point, Karyn went to sleep in her bedroom and Robert and Edward continued to watch TV. They left about 11:15 p.m., locking the door behind them.
On November 30th, the Goddards, worried that they hadn’t heard from Karyn for several days, went to her place to check on her. They discovered the starlet lying nude on her living room couch, dead. Several prescription bottles were found inside the apartment, as well as an odd note that reportedly read, “I’m no good. I’m not really that pretty. My figure’s fat and will never be the way my mother wants it. I won’t let it be what she wants. . . . What happens to me – or my Andy? Why doesn’t he want me?” And while Mark and Marcia initially assumed that Karyn had overdosed, her passing was officially ruled a homicide. Due to the broken hyoid bone in her throat, the coroner listed the cause of death as strangulation. And here’s where things get really strange.
President Kennedy had been assassinated the week prior and around that same time an AP news story was published stating that on November 22nd, a woman most likely in the Oxnard-Camarillo area had dialed a telephone operator and proclaimed that JFK was about to be shot. Twenty minutes later, he was. While police investigated, the woman was never found. Then, in the 1967 book Forgive my Grief II, author Penn Jones claimed that the caller was Karyn. Irv had ties to several mafia figures including Jack Ruby and Penn believed that Jack had told Irv about the assassination prior to it happening. Irv then told Karen and Karen called not the police, but a random telephone operator. Penn asserts that Karyn was killed by the mob a few days later in retaliation for that phone call. Yeah, sounds pretty far-fetched to me, too.
There are also those who believe that Karyn’s death was the result of a much less sinister occurrence. Prolific crime fiction writer James Ellroy is one of them. In a February 2011 Pittsburg Post-Gazette article, he is quoted as saying, “People love to think something is inherently more dramatic, more secret, crazier, uglier, more vicious and vile. People love the inside scoop and will deny all the facts even when they are hit directly over the head with them. It’s a very, very, very common phenomenon to ascribe more intrigue to a prosaic event than the prosaic event truly demands.” Ellroy maintains that Karyn fell down and hit her neck on a coffee table while “dancing around, bombed out of her mind.” Scott Michaels, of the Find a Death website, disagrees with that assertion, saying, “Another theory held by exactly one individual, writer James Ellroy, is that Karyn was stoned to the gills, danced alone naked in the apartment, fell or hit her neck on an object and fell face down on the couch and died. He bases his theory on the fact that a book on the benefits of naked dancing was found in the apartment and the coroner may have been a drunk prone to mistakes. Thanks for playing Ellroy – we have some lovely parting gifts for all of our contestants . . . “ LOL Whatever the true story may be, Karyn’s death remains unsolved and the L.A.P.D. considers it an open case to this day.
On a side-note – I would like to wish my friend Melissa a big CONGRATULATIONS on her upcoming nuptials! She is getting married tomorrow and is having a movie-themed wedding. The event is even being held in a theatre – a woman after my own heart, I swear! As part of the décor, Melissa and her betrothed re-created several movie posters that are going to be hung on the walls. How incredibly cute is that? Pictured below are a few of their poster re-creations. LOVE IT!
The 1963 Death of Actress Karyn Kupcinet: Conspiracy Theorists Allege It Was Connected to the Kennedy Assassination
In 1963, 22-year old Karyn Kupcinet was living in West Hollywood, California and attempting an acting career with some bit parts in film and television. She hailed from Chicago and her parents were notable columnist and TV personality Irv Kupcinet and his wife, Essie. Ever since Karyn was a teenager, Essie had been pushing her into an acting career and introduced her to diet pills in order to keep her weight down. Karyn became romantically involved with actor Andrew Prine, but he did not want an exclusive relationship and wished to date other women. In July of that year, Karyn became pregnant with Andrew’s child, so her friends, Mark and Marcia Goddard, took her to Tijuana for an illegal abortion. On the evening of November 27, Karyn attended a dinner party at the Goddards’ home, but showed signs of being under the influence of drugs. She also started crying and shared an odd story about finding an abandoned baby on her doorstep earlier that day before she called the police to pick it up. She left the party at around 8:30 PM.
After not hearing from her for three days, the Goddards showed up at Karyn’s West Hollywood apartment on November 30 and found the door unlocked. They discovered Karyn’s nude decomposing body lying face down on the couch. After leaving the Goddards’ dinner party, Karyn returned to her apartment and watched TV with two friends, Edward Rubin and Robert Hathaway. Both men claimed that Karyn kept falling asleep before she went into her bedroom at 11:15, prompting them to leave and lock the door behind them. They went to Hathaway’s duplex, where he happened to be neighbours with Andrew Prine, and the three men watched TV together. Prine claimed he had called Karyn at midnight, where she shared the same story about finding an abandoned baby on her doorstep, but police had no record of such an incident. In the preceding months, Andrew and Karyn had both received threatening notes assembled together with letters cut out of magazines. However, Karyn’s fingerprints were found on the paper and scotch tape, indicating that she sent all the notes herself.
Cryptic handwritten notes were found inside the apartment with sentences like: “I’m no good. I’m not really that pretty. My figure’s fat and will never be the way my mother wants it. Why must I be so alone? What’s the use of living with nothing to believe in? There’s nothing. Only phony motives, selfish egoists, selfless people, fat heads and drunks and I want out.”. Since Karyn had 13 bottles of prescription drugs in her medicine cabinet, the initial belief was that she had committed suicide or suffered an accidental overdose. However, Karyn’s death was officially classified as a homicide when the coroner, Dr. Harold Kade, discovered a broken hyoid bone in her throat, which seemed to indicate strangulation. He listed the likely time of death as 12:30 AM on November 28. Prine, Rubin and Hathaway were all investigated, but no evidence tied them to her death. Another potential suspect was an actor named David Lange, who lived in the apartment below Karyn and claimed to have returned home at 12:30 AM that night. Lange was known for being a drunk and entering people’s apartments uninvited. A few days after Karyn’s death, he told a woman he’d killed Karyn, but then claimed he was just joking around and no evidence linked him to the scene either.
In 1967, Karyn’s death was unexpectedly inked to the assassination of John F. Kennedy. In his book, “Forgive My Grief”, researcher Penn Jones Jr. described an incident where an anonymous woman called a switchboard operator in Oxnard, California at 10:00 AM on November 22, 1963 and said that the President was going to die in ten minutes. The woman rambled incoherently before changing the time of death to 10:30. The call ended at 10:25 AM PST and Presdient Kennedy was assassinated five minutes later at 12:30 PM CST. Jones believed the female caller was Karyn Kupcinet. During the 1940s, her father, Irv Kupcinet, was acquainted with Jack Ruby before Ruby moved from Chicago to Dallas and eventually assassinated Lee Harvey Oswald. Jones theorized that Ruby told Irv Kupcinet about the assassination plot against Kennedy, who subsequently shared it with his daughter. Karyn then made the anonymous phone call in an attempt to stop the assassination, but she was murdered by the mafia one week later in order scare her father into remaining silent. Irv Kupcinet denounced this theory as absurd and denied that he or Karen had any knowledge of the Kennedy assassination. His denial was bolstered by the fact that the switchboard operator thought the caller sounded like an older, middle-aged woman, and Oxnard is also 50 miles away from Karyn’s apartment in West Hollywood. For years, Karyn’s parents believed that Andrew Prine murdered her, but Irv eventually published a memoir in which he stated he no longer thought Prine was responsible and believed the most likely suspect was David Lange.
Noted crime author James Ellroy has theorized that Karyn’s death was an accident. A book was found in her apartment which was opened to a page about dancing in the nude. Ellroy speculated that Karyn might have been dancing nude while on drugs, causing her to fall over and hit her throat on something before landing on the couch. Another theory is that the coroner, Dr. Harold Kade, caused Karyn’s broken hyoid bone himself. Kade was an alcoholic with a history of erratic behaviour who often had his autopsy findings challenged. A few days after Karyn’s death, Kade was performing another autopsy and allegedly said: “At least I didn’t break the hyoid bone on this one”. If Dr. Kade was responsible for the broken hyoid bone, then there might not have been any foul play at all, but the L.A.P.D. still officially consider Karyn Kupcinet’s death to be an unsolved murder.
I cover the case on this week’s episode of “The Trail Went Cold” podcast:
I always thought that if her father, Irv, with all of his connections to showbiz and other important people couldn't get some pertinent info about the murder then the police wouldn't have much success either.
She did get to ride the massive member of actor Andrew Prine for a while, but apparently was too fucked up mentally to keep him interested. Allegedly, an abortion was performed at one point.
I am fascinated by this case
This case drives me crazy. There are no answers same thing with the Dorothy Killagan
Loved the involvement of the incredibly hot Mark Goddard of "Lost in Space" fame. and that it took place during the last gasps of old Hollywood before the hippies took over.
Her parents always thought Prine was the killer of their daughter. I talked with her niece once who believes it was the neighbor downstairs David Lange, brother to Hope.
I obviously have no way of really knowing, but I always assumed it was probably the late David Lange.
Just based upon what I've read of his bizarre behavior at the time.
Karyn was terrified of Essie's enormous bouffant which required at least a case of White Rain to maintain.
She had the worst screen name of all time. Why didn't she change it?
Maybe she was killed because it's so awful.
R6, R7, Are you saying that David Lange was a paid hit man, or that he killed her for an unrelated reason.
James Ellroy's book CRIME WAVE, which has a mix of fiction and nonfiction stories set in L.A. (if I remember correctly), has a lengthy chapter about the Karyn Kupcinet murder, with lots of well-researched and dishy information.
There were some weird notes found in her apartment, and she'd complained to her friends that she seemed to have a stalker. Police spent a long time on that lead before concluding she might have written the notes herself for attention, and the murder was unrelated.
This picture of her is the most exotic -- there are lots of others showing a conventionally attractive Midwestern brunette obviously influenced by Jackie Kennedy's style. But the more you look at her, it's clear she wasn't conventionally pretty (at least not enough for Hollywood), but really interesting.
I bet she would've turned into an insanely decadent hippie chick.
KUPCINET'S murder was either a crime of hate or a crime of passion it was in all likelihood not a pay for hire murder.
For years some thought she had come out to Hollywood earlier and taken bit roles in tiny pictures, the most famous of which was the original Little Shop of Horrors (as one of the teen girl fans). That actress was listed in the credits as "Tammy Windsor," and had a couple of other tiny roles before vanishing entirely around the time Karyn moved to Hollywood from Chicago.
Karyn is still listed on some websites in the credits of Little Shop of Horrors.
Apparently "Tammy Windsor" was a different woman entirely, and the connection was made up by a writer who saw Little Shop and assumed it was Karyn under a pseudonym. The Kupcinet family has debunked the rumor, but still: no one knows what happened to Tammy Windsor, who vanished after making a few pictures.
"Earl Holliman and his girl friend."
I'll just leave that there.
She kind of looks like Liz Taylor in r12's link
Something I've noticed is that the press for closeted actors always seemed to have some kind of bizarre, convoluted story to go along with it. Holliman's is no exception.
Yeah, Lynn Loring was the woman who weekended in Palm Springs with Kupcinet, Prine & Holliman. She later married Roy Thinnes.
More importantly, Loring later became the president of M.G.M./United Artists television devision. That photo from the fall of '63 shows her (LL) pre-nose job and still with her babyfat. A few years later she really turned into a beauty !
Here's Lynn Loring and Roy Thinnes.
But back to Karyn, I was reading an article about the murder which mentioned that if you google pictures of Prine nude, you'd see why she was obsessed with him. and boy were they right!
This article also says Lange "jokingly" told friends he'd killed Karyn! Lange sounds like a psycho alkie.
Here's a VERY long cover feature from Chicago magazine on Karyn's father, Irv Kupcinet, who was one of the city's best-known columnists in the 1950s. Fascinating and lots of info in there about Karyn's death.
Chicgo, what about Sharon Percy, daughter of the late Senator Percy
That one has puzzled us since it happened. Her step-mother, who was the only one who saw the attacker lives here in Maryland now. Valerie's twin is married to Rockerfeller.
r12 There's a little bit of a Bobby Gentry/Barbara Parkins there too.
That's just the coloring & the heavy liner, brow pencil of the era. Karyn was nowhere near the beauty that Parkins was.
Poor girl felt her tall elegant mother made her feel guilty about the fact that she was prone to be 'pudgy' so she lived off of diet pills. The 5'2" princess had her nosed 'bobbed' while still in her teens since she naturally had rather jewish looking nose. (Lots of jewish girls as well as non-Jewish girls who could afford it were having nose jobs). Karyn also did not have the best looking teeth. In her better looking photographs her mouth is closed. Look at her in the attached image where she looks more like a jewish American princess than a beautiful starlet. Yes she was pretty but from what I've read & the images, films, tv that I've seen of her, I honestly don't think she was going to have any major career in Hollywood.
Poor Irv -- he was a good guy
Essie was a little scary--tough broad. Irv was a bit of a blowhard. But they did support the arts in Chicago.
I had never heard of her till this thread. Now I've ordered the Ellroy book. Thanks, DL!
Fascinating. Never heard of her before either.
By the way, James Ellroy has an outlier theory that it wasn't suicide, but that Karyn was drunkenly dancing around the apartment, fell, and hit her throat on the edge of the coffee table just so in a one-in-a-million accident. He goes into a lot of detail, but I didn't find it convincing I think David Lange did it.
The Kupcinets always claimed to know who did it but said it couldn't be proven in a court of law, and they never gave up the name.
"But back to Karyn, I was reading an article about the murder which mentioned that if you google pictures of Prine nude, you'd see why she was obsessed with him. and boy were they right!"
Even the horse seems impressed.
Believes Andy Prine murdered Karyn
Why would Goddard pay for her abortion?
If you had Irv and Essie for parents, you would welcome an early death. And believe me, I met them both on multiple occasions. He was a freeloading windbag and she made Leona Helmsley seem like Cruella deVil by comparison.
And WEHT R6, Kelt? Maybe you don't want to know.
You're right, we don't want to know what happened to Kelt, that racist scum.
Prime didn't have much of a career. He did a few TV shows and disappeared after a few years.
My mother's best friend from high school is married to Mark Goddard.
Back in the '90s, I was working at the Paley Center (then the Museum of Television & Radio) and we did a Lost in Space event.
I went up to Goddard and introduced myself as the son of his wife's friend. He was nice enough. And there was an open bar.
Cut to a couple hours later. After screening the unaired pilot of Lost in Space Goddard was drunk off his handsome ass. He literally fell out of his chair.
I wish I knew enough at the time to ask him about Karyn Kupcinet.
[quote]she made Leona Helmsley seem like Cruella deVil by comparison.
This doesn't make sense. Aren't you trying to say she was WORSE than Leona Helmsley?
Prine's career was definitely affected by his association with the Kupcinet murder.
I love the story of Mark Goddard, still daddy-handsome in his fifties, drunk enough to fall out of his chair at a screening of "Lost in Space." Thank you, r42!
I love that Mark Goddard went back to school to become a teacher.
Andrew Prine and Brenda Scott were married three times in the 60s. What was the deal with that? Was one - or both - unstable?
Prine's career was wrecked by the Kupcinets, especially Essie, who pretty much had him blacklisted.
Those letters were what gave the case that extra oddball factor that made it more than some standard unsolved murder. Wasn't there some supposed tie in to the JFK assassination with Karyn's death too ? Valerie Percy was an odd case too.
Essie smothered her with her Ann Miller wig
Mark Goddard was always good at playing the good guy. Why was he so nervous in the True Hollywood Story talking about Karyn? Talk about body language.
R18 Roy Thinnes--hotness itself, for a while
Mark is a very nice man, have met him numerous times. But R42, hunty, you should have helped him to a private room or area, removed his slacks, and had a trouser treat. I bet he is 9 inches with a beautiful thick black bush. I'd still do him, saw him on tv the other day.
Irv Kupcinet, 91, Dies Chronicled Chicago for 60 Years
Irv Kupcinet, the celebrity-adoring gossip columnist for The Chicago Sun-Times whose daily jottings amounted to a love letter to the city where he himself became a celebrity, died there on Monday. He was 91, and his last column ran on Thursday.
Mr. Kupcinet was possessed of an old-fashioned love for a particular kind of old-fashioned journalism and for a particular city, Chicago, and its feistiness, its turmoil and occasional bawdiness. He liked to recite a saying attributed to a Midwestern farm boy leaving home: ''Goodbye, God, we're going to Chicago.''
Known affectionately as Kup to his readers, he began writing ''Kup's Column'' in The Chicago Daily Times in January 1943, and easily weathered the absorption of The Daily Times into The Chicago Sun, which became The Sun-Times in 1948.
Mr. Kupcinet had a wide-eyed love of celebrities -- movie stars, tycoons, popes, presidents, beautiful people, kings and potentates of every description, even princes of the underworld.
He pursued those who ventured to Chicago by table-hopping at lunch, inviting some to his table at the Pump Room, inviting others to appear on his marathon Saturday night television show. And for those he could not reach personally, he relied on sources that included publicity agents, headwaiters, cabbies and even gangsters and their lawyers. Gangsters, he said, were often more reliable as tipsters than were respected citizens.
He adored those he wrote about, and they adored him back.
''The thing about Kup that was unique is that he was a decent man,'' Studs Terkel said in an interview in The New York Times in August 2002. ''To write what is a gossip column and be a decent person is a rather unique trick.''
Sometimes, though, there were newsy dust-ups.
It was on Mr. Kupcinet's television show, for example, that Gen. Douglas MacArthur denied an accusation by President Harry S. Truman that the general wanted to drop a nuclear bomb on China.
And it was in a 1979 column that he quoted Princess Margaret of Britain as saying that ''the Irish are pigs.'' Mr. Kupcinet said he personally heard the princess say that to Chicago's Mayor Jane M. Byrne at a dinner party. Mayor Byrne, ever the diplomat, explained that the princess was not referring to all the Irish, only those who engaged in terrorism.
Mr. Kupcinet was the last of a breed. He had been a professional contemporary of Walter Winchell, Ed Sullivan and Hedda Hopper, but he continued writing long after they had passed from the scene. He outlasted even Herb Caen, another 60-year-veteran, who spent most of his career at The San Francisco Chronicle and who died in 1997.
Irving Kupcinet (pronounced KUP-sin-ette) was born July 31, 1912, one of four children of Max Kupcinet, a truck driver for a bakery, and the former Anna Paswell. He grew up in Lawndale. At Harrison High School, where he played football, he took a journalism class and was fascinated by the potential for a life of writing for newspapers.
But he got to that point with the help of football. After his high school graduation in 1930, he accepted a football scholarship to Northwestern University. Following college, he became a reserve player in the backfield of the Philadelphia Eagles, but he left the team soon after suffering a serious shoulder injury. He landed a job as a reporter for The Chicago Daily Times.
''Kup's Column'' was created because the paper decided it needed a gossip column, and ''Kupcinet's Column'' was not catchy enough.
Mr. Kupcinet plunged into his work with vigor. His six columns a week each ran about a thousand words, and he made sure that everyone he wrote about got a copy of the page, which he regarded as 'ɺn aid in maintaining out-of-town contacts which can lead to further column items.''
He believed that each column should end with a dash of humor, but he never thought of himself as a humorist. So he welcomed the participation of 'ɺmateur quipsters.'' One such source was known as Ivan Bunny, but Bunny's offerings were actually the work of two brothers, Jimmy and Ivan Colitz, the latter an auto parts supervisor. Mr. Kupcinet also used the work of a high school friend, Al Hamburg, and a druggist, Sam Tunick.
Mr. Kupcinet became a celebrity himself, through not only his column but also his weekly television show on the Chicago CBS outlet, 'ɺt Random,'' which he called 'ɺ conversational show for controversial people.'' For a time, he also provided commentary for Chicago Bears football games.
The job provided ''more glamour and adventure than I ever dreamed I could be a part of,'' Mr. Kupcinet said. He met with Pope Pius XII at the Vatican, as well as Presidents Truman and Franklin D. Roosevelt, and the comedian Bob Hope, with whom he sometimes traveled when Mr. Hope went on tour.
In the past few years, as it grew more difficult for him to get out, he made the rounds in a wheelchair. Toward the end of his life, he spent most of his afternoons in bed, taking items from the cabbies and headwaiters who still loved to read him and talk to him. His column, by now written with Stella Foster, began to appear less often, twice a week, and was pushed toward the back of the paper.
Mr. Kupcinet's wife of 62 years, Essee, died in 2001 and was, at her suggestion, buried with two packs of unfiltered Pall Mall cigarettes at her side. His daughter, Karyn Kupcinet, an actress, was slain in Hollywood in 1963. The case was never solved. Mr. Kupcinet and his wife established a playhouse at Shimer College in Waukegan, Ill., in her honor and also a school at the Weizmann Institute of Science in Israel.
He is survived by a son, Jerry, and two grandchildren.
A plaque in the lobby of The Sun-Times calls Mr. Kupcinet a 'ɼhronicler of Chicago night life, companion to celebrities, confidant of presidents, friend to all.''
But he seemed proudest of a more permanent memorial. In 1986, the Wabash Avenue Bridge over the Chicago River was renamed the Irv Kupcinet Bridge. He arranged to have it mentioned in his write-up in Who's Who.
Karyn Kupcinet was an American stage, film, and television actress. She was the only daughter of Chicago columnist and television personality Irv Kupcinet.
Kupcinet had a brief acting career during the early 1960s. Six days after the assassination of John F. Kennedy, her body was found at her West Hollywood, California, home. With her death officially ruled an unsolved homicide, and occurring so close to the JFK assassination, her name has become one of hundreds added to the multiplicity of theories that emerged after the assassination. In the 1960s, Irv Kupcinet publicly dismissed the theories linking his daughter to the Presidents death. In 1992, The Today Show referred briefly to her alleged connection to the assassination, which prompted Kupcinet to describe the television broadcast as "an atrocious outrage" and "calumny". Karyn Kupcinets death remains officially unsolved.
1. Early life
Kupcinet was born Roberta Lynn Kupcinet in Chicago to Irv Kupcinet, a sportswriter for the Chicago Daily Times, and his wife, Esther "Essee" Solomon Kupcinet. She acquired the nickname "Cookie" during her childhood. She made her acting debut at age 13 in the Chicago production of Anniversary Waltz, and went on to attend Pine Manor College for a semester, eventually studying at the Actors Studio in New York City.
Kupcinet was encouraged into acting by her mother, and was given access to producers through the reputation of her father and his Kups Column in the Sun-Times. In 1961, Jerry Lewis offered Kupcinet a role in the film The Ladies Man, where she appeared in a bit part as one of dozens of young ladies in a Hollywood boardinghouse. In 1962, she appeared in the role of Annie Sullivan in a Laguna Beach summer theater production of The Miracle Worker. She appeared in guest roles on television, including The Donna Reed Show, The Wide Country, G.E. True, Going My Way, The Andy Griffith Show, and Death Valley Days. In addition to guest spots, Kupcinet had a regular role in the prime-time series Mrs. G. Goes to College retitled The Gertrude Berg Show during its short run.
Kupcinets last onscreen appearance was on Perry Mason in the role of Penny Ames, entitled, "The Case of the Capering Camera". The episode aired on CBS on January 16, 1964, nearly two months after her death. It was also the final on-screen appearance of Ray Collins, who was no longer able to do the show due to his emphysema. Collins played Lt. Tragg.
3. Personal life
By 1961, Kupcinet was living in Hollywood and was getting positive reviews for her acting. In March 1962, a Los Angeles Times interviewer, assigned to help Kupcinet promote The Gertrude Berg Show, noted her talking exclusively about food and her weight.
In December 1962, Kupcinet filmed a guest-star appearance on The Wide Country and had her first meeting with one of the series stars, Andrew Prine, and began a relationship with him. However, the relationship was problematic, Kupcinet was abusing diet pills along with other prescription drugs, and she had been arrested for shoplifting.
The problems in Kupcinets relationship with Prine were mainly due to Prines objections to making the relationship exclusive. After Kupcinet underwent an illegal abortion in July 1963, the relationship cooled and Prine began dating other women. In turn, Kupcinet began spying on Prine and his new girlfriend.
The Los Angeles County Sheriffs Department later determined Kupcinet had sent threatening and profane messages, consisting of words and letters she had cut out of magazines, to Prine and herself. When Prine told her by telephone about the messages that had been left on his doorstep, she said she had received them, too. They met to show the messages to each other. She seemed puzzled. Soon after her death, investigators for the sheriffs department found her fingerprints on the papers and the Scotch tape.
The weight problems had started in high school when Kupcinet began taking diet pills. Her weight remained an issue while at Pine Manor College. The pressure to stay thin intensified after Kupcinet arrived in Hollywood, and she soon began abusing diet pills along with other prescription drugs.
4.1. Death Lovers quarrel
During the course of their investigation, the Los Angeles County Sheriffs Department named Andrew Prine as one of their chief suspects. When questioned by law enforcement, Prine said he had talked with Kupcinet twice by phone on Wednesday, the day before her murder, claiming he was trying to patch up a lovers quarrel between them. Detectives considered it possible that after Prine learned the anonymous threat letters both he and Kupcinet had received had been created by Kupcinet herself, that and their unresolved argument gave him a motive for murder. In addition, both Edward Rubin and Robert Hathaway, the two men who had possibly been the last to see her alive, were friends of Prine. They were also eventually named as suspects.
In 1988, Kupcinets father Irv published a memoir in which he revealed that he and his wife Essee Karyns mother believed that Andrew Prine had nothing to do with Karyns murder. He was suspicious of a person, still alive when he wrote his memoir, who had no connection to Prine.
4.2. Death Alleged connection to JFK
Kupcinets death was first mentioned in connection with the John F. Kennedy assassination in 1967 by researcher Penn Jones, Jr. in the self-published book Forgive My Grief II. Jones cited an Associated Press wire service story about an unidentified woman who placed a phone call on November 22, 1963, from the vicinity of Oxnard, California, about 50 miles northwest of Los Angeles, and Jones claimed this woman was Kupcinet.
The woman, who dialed her local operator roughly 20 minutes before the shooting of the president in Dallas, stated that he was going to be shot. Jones alleged that "Karyn Kupcinet" was attempting to warn someone of the impending assassination. Jones claimed that she was told of the imminent assassination by her father, who allegedly had been given advance notice by Oswalds killer Jack Ruby, whom Irv Kupcinet had met in Chicago in the 1940s.
Jones speculated Karyn Kupcinet had been murdered by representatives of the Italian-American Mafia who silenced her and sent a message to her father to remain silent about why JFK and Oswald had been shot and who was actually responsible.
Irv Kupcinet denied that he or his daughter had prior knowledge of the shootings of the president or Oswald. This was supported by Karyn Kupcinets friends, actor Earl Holliman, Hollimans then-girlfriend, and Karyns boyfriend Andrew Prine, all of whom traveled to Palm Springs with Karyn on November 22. Karyn Kupcinet reportedly seemed upset and shocked about television and radio coverage of the shootings that she saw and heard in Palm Springs. She did not reveal any foreknowledge of the events.
In 2013, the Ventura County Star commemorated the 50th anniversary of the JFK assassination with a long article about the unknown woman who had used a phone in the vicinity of Oxnard, 50 miles away from Karyn Kupcinets home, immediately before the shooting of JFK. Citing FBI documents that were declassified decades after the events of November 1963, the Ventura County Star article claims that two telephone operators with General Telephone Company who listened to the unknown woman talking for approximately 15 minutes gave the FBI a description of her voice. FBI agents questioned the two operators a very short time after JFKs death. Their description did not match Kupcinets voice in the slightest, especially regarding her age bracket. The 2013 Ventura County Star article adds that the two operators believed the woman on the phone was "mentally disturbed."
Regarding Irv Kupcinets connection to Jack Ruby, one year his senior, the Warren Commission determined that many men in their age bracket had interacted with Ruby in Chicago before 1947, when he moved from Chicago to Dallas. The Commission questioned many Chicagoans who had interacted with Ruby. None of them had prior knowledge that he was going to shoot Oswald.
Irv and Essee Kupcinet established a playhouse at Shimer College in her honor.
In 1971, Irv Kupcinet and his wife also founded the Karyn Kupcinet International School for Science, a summer research internships program at the Weizmann Institute of Science.
In 2007, Kupcinets niece, actress Kari Kupcinet-Kriser, and Washburn University professor Paul Fecteau, began work on a book about Kupcinets unsolved murder.
Karyn kupcinet Bing.
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The Trail Went Cold – Episode 47 – Karyn Kupcinet from The Trail.
Home arrow Los Angeles Public Library Photo Collection arrow Note sent to Karyn Kupcinet before murder. Reference URL. Share. To link to this object, paste. Foreknowledge of the Assassination Mary Ferrell Foundation.:11 This week we are joined by Billy Jensen of Jensen & Holes: The Murder Squad podcast to discuss the case of Karyn Kupcinet. Listen to the Hollywood Crime Scene Episode 87 Karyn. Find the perfect Karyn Kupcinet stock photos and editorial news pictures from Getty Images. Download premium images you cant get anywhere else. Irv Kupcinet Obituary Chicago, IL Chicago Tribune. Karyn Kupcinet Vintage RARE Glossy signed photograph. The Trail Went Cold – Episode 47 – Karyn Kupcinet, an episode. Karyn kupcinet. No Image MOVIE TRIVIA – PT35. July 25, 2018 Alan Royle 3. Bridgette Andersen in Savannah Smiles Looking for Something? Search for:.
TALK:KARYN KUPCINET Information.
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Karyn Kupcinet, who played Penny Ames, was murdered not long after she made this episode. The murder is unsolved. Her body was found by Mark Goddard. Andrew prine murder – Karyn Kupcinet – Rxxg k.co. Andrew Prine was Karyn Kupcinets boyfriend until shortly before her violent and untimely death on November 28, 1963. Karyns body lay. Karyn Kupcinet Strangled Hollywood Beauty eBook by Robert Grey. 50 years ago this week, Sun Times columnist Irv Kupcinets daughter, Karyn Kupcinet, was murdered. The case was never solved. Karyn Kupcinet. Karyn Kupcinet. Birth. 6 Mar 1941 Chicago, Cook County, Illinois, United States of America. Death. 28 Nov 1963 West Hollywood, Los. Irving Kupcinet 1912 2003 FamilySearch. Karyn Kupcinet Celebrity Profile Check out the latest Karyn Kupcinet photo gallery, biography, pics, pictures, interviews, news, forums and blogs at Rotten. Karyn Kupcinet The Web Video Encyclopedia Mashpedia. Was Karyn Kupcinet a victim of foul play or was her death simply the result of a tragic accident? In this weeks episode of The Trail Went Cold, we explore a.
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Title: Karyn Kupcinet Alternative Title: Los Angeles HeraldA Examiner Photo Collection Date Created and or Issued: 1963 Contributing Institution: Los Angeles. Karyn Kupcinet Mayberry Fandom. Karyn Kupcinets murder is still unsolved in 2014. She was strangled in the early morning hours of November 28, 1963. The assassination of President John F. Karyn Cookie Kupcinet Celebrity Deaths: Find a Death. Karyn Kupcinet was a beautiful young actress working her way up the Hollywood ladder, using her grit, tenacity and her dads solid.
- ^ a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p Felsenthal, Carol (June 2004). "The Lost World of Kup". Chicago Magazine.
- ^ a b Karyn Kupcinet at the Internet Movie Database
- ^ Austin, John (1992). The Tales of Hollywood the Bizarre. SP Books. pp. 147–148.
- ^ Lane, Lydia (1962-03-29). "No Starch, No Sweets".
- ^ a b c d e f g Ellroy, James (1999). Crime Wave: Reportage and Fiction From the Underside of L.A. Random House, Inc. p. 86.
- ^ Austin, John (1992). The Tales of Hollywood the Bizarre. SP Books. p. 150.
- ^ Korman, Seymour (December 2, 1963). "4 Face Quiz in Starlet's Slaying".
- ^ a b c d e f Ellroy, James (1999). Crime Wave: Reportage and Fiction From the Underside of L.A. Random House, Inc. p. 72.
- ^ Ellroy, James (1999). Crime Wave: Reportage and Fiction From the Underside of L.A. Random House, Inc. p. 71.
- ^ Ellroy, James (1999). Crime Wave: Reportage and Fiction From the Underside of L.A. Random House, Inc. pp. 71–72.
- ^ Ellroy, James (1999). Crime Wave: Reportage and Fiction From the Underside of L.A. Random House, Inc. p. 63.
- ^ a b c d e McAdams, John C. "Dead in the Wake of the Kennedy Assassination: Hollywood Homicide". Marquette University.
- ^ a b Felsenthal, Carol (June 2004). "The Lost World of Kup".
- ^ By Stephan Benzkofer (November 24, 2013). "Karyn Kupcinet 1963 death still unsolved". Chicago Tribune . Retrieved July 7, 2015 .
- ^ Phil Potempa (November 29, 2013). "OFFBEAT: Chicago gossip columnist Kup never forgot beloved daughter". Northwest Indiana Times . Retrieved July 7, 2015 .
- ^ Jones, Jr., Penn. "Papers of Penn Jones Jr. Kennedy Assassination Materials 1963-1998". Baylor Collections of Political Materials. Baylor University. Archived from the original on 2006-08-28.
- ^ Fecteau, Paul (2005–2006). "Zapruder’s Stepchildren: The Most Fascinating People in J.F.K. Assassination Lore". Washburn University . Retrieved 2007-11-28 .
- ^ Death of a Dream: Karyn Kupcinet: The E! True Hollywood Story. Yahoo TV.com.
- ^ Severo, Richard (2003-11-11). "Irv Kupcinet, 91, Dies Chronicled Chicago for 60 Years". New York Times.
- ^ Shur, Cindy (2006-11-07). "Remembering Irv Kupcinet". Jewish United Fund.
- ^ Fecteau, Paul. "A Search for Karyn Kupcinet". Washburn University.
|1960 to 1961||Hawaiian Eye||Maila |
|1961||The Donna Reed Show||Jeannie||Episode: "Mary's Little Lambs"|
|1961||The Ladies Man||Working Girl|
|1961 to 1962||The Gertrude Berg Show||Carol||3 episodes|
|1962||The Red Skelton Show||Janet - Secretary||Episode: "How to Fail. "|
|1962||G.E. True||Marybelle||Episode: "The Handmade Private"|
|1963||The Wide Country||Barbara Rice||Episode: "A Cry from the Mountain"|
|1963||Going My Way||Amy||Episode: "Has Anyone Seen Eddie?"|
|1964||Perry Mason||Penny Ames||Episode: "The Case of the Capering Camera"|
Irv and Karyn Kupcinet - History
Someone was asking earlier when Oswald fired his first shot. James L Swanson made the following guess based largely on the Zapruder film. “Oswald held his fire as he watched the president’s limousine drive straight at him, until it reached the corner of Houston and Elm and slowed to make the hairpin left turn onto Elm.” Even as the limo was passing right below him and he had an easy shot, Oswald still restrained himself for fear of giving away his position. “He allowed the president’s car to make its turn undisturbed, followed by the Secret Service car.” It was after this that he fired his first shot and missed. Swanson also compared this first missed shot with Oswald missing his shot at General Walker.
Is it at all possible, worth thinking about at all, that the shooter in the sniper’s nest was not necessarily trying to get the easiest shot off or worried about giving away his position but instead trying to line up both Kennedy and Connally? If Oswald, it has been said that he had a problem with Connally due to trying to get his dishonorable discharge from the marine corp reversed.
So why did he bring the rifle to the TSBD and leave the .38
revolver at his rooming house?
Because he didn’t know what was about to go down?
It is being said here that the lone gunman advocates are the ones calling Oswald a “lone nut”. Yet it can also be said that numerous conspiracy theory buffs try to prove their points at Lee Harvey Oswald’s expense. Just saying the man is innocent and then portraying him as a weak willed man isn’t a compliment at all. Changing his beliefs and personality to support your theories isn’t a compliment either. It might be more respectful to look at what he said earlier in his life, to take him more serious before the tragedy happened. Being arrested for a murder and an assassination, whether he did this or not, can really muddle a person, cause one to struggle with oneself. He was in a fight for his life.
Oswald could very well have been part of a plot, and for that reason guilty for knowing something and not reporting it, or he could have been completely duped, but the likelihood of his acting alone is absolutely ludicrous. There is no solid evidence linking Oswald to the crime, just weakly gathered circumstantial evidence, tainted by bad police methods in Dallas, and further tainted by the acoustical evidence, which points to at least two directions for the shots.
Interesting to note Robert’s testimony flies in the face of the Marines who served with Oswald and friends who went hunting with him in Russia. What evidence is there that Oswald practiced extensively after returning to the U.S. in June 1962? According to Marina, there was none.
According to both Marina and George DeMohrenschildt, Oswald did go out shooting, did some target practicing. So if family members like Marina and his brother Robert said he did some shooting, why is their testimony not as good as your words here? Why should friends and family members be discredited? Why are the marines who said he was a poor shot, who go against the records, more important than those other marines who say he did pretty good? Why is their word more accurate than the records on file? Why are the opinions of experts like Major Eugene Anderson, Robert Frazier, and Mosk to be discredited? Why should I assume that they are all liars or not qualified when it says they are/were qualified?
Marina said he didn’t target practice? It was quoted somewhere earlier that she said he did go out shooting.
Sammy, are you able to provide links that substantiate your claims?
An FBI report of an interview with Marina Oswald on December 3rd 1963, states that “Marina said she had never seen Oswald practice with his rifle or any other firearm and he had never told her that he was going to practice” http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=171593
A Secret Service report on December 4th of an interview with Marina states “that she never saw Lee going out or coming in to the house with a rifle and that he never mentioned to her doing any practice with a rifle.”
A Secret Service report on December 10th states “Marina Oswald was asked if she ever saw her husband doing any dry practice with the rifle either in their apartments or any place else, and she replied in the negative.”
In the Warren Commission Executive Session of January 27th 1964, Warren Commission council J. Lee Rankin discussed Oswald’s proficiency with a rifle, “there are a good many stories about his practicing with a gun, you know, around various rifle ranges and so forth. We have checked them out, and none of them stand up at all.” http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1328&relPageId=83
As for testimony around Oswald’s shooting skills:
Nelson Delgado, a Marine in the same unit as Oswald, used to laugh at Oswald’s shooting prowess and testified that Oswald often got “Maggie’s drawers” meaning a red flag that is waved from the rifle pits to indicate a complete miss of the target during qualification firing. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=36&relPageId=243
Sherman Cooley, who served with Oswald in the Marines, said in an interview with former Rockefeller Foundation fellow Henry Hurt that “If I had to pick one man in the whole United States to shoot me, I’d pick Oswald. I saw the man shoot. There’s no way he could have ever learned to shoot well enough to do what they accused him of doing in Dallas.” Reasonable Doubt, New York: Holt, Rinehart, and Winston, 1985, p. 99
Rockefeller Foundation fellow Henry Hurt interviewed over fifty former Marine colleagues of Oswald’s and reported that “On the subject of Oswald’s shooting ability, there was virtually no exception to Delgado’s opinion that it was laughable…” Reasonable Doubt, New York: Holt, Rinehart, and Winston, 1985, p. 99
You seem to rely heavily on the Mary Ferrill site. There are other sources and opinions available. I see that Sammy didn’t name the sources for his/her quotes. I’m familiar with them. From the book, Beyond Reasonable Doubt, by Mel Ayton and David Von Pein “Sergeant Zahn, one of Oswald’s trainers, has confirmed Oswald’s ability with a rifle and described him as an excellent shot. In December 1956 , at the end of his training, Oswald was tested and scored 212 – two points above the minimum for sharpshooter.” We also know, that when officially tested at another time, he scored 191 which was in the marksman range. Despite what Mr. Delgado may have said about Oswald and “Maggie’s bloomers”, when it comes down to facts, test scores count. In fact I think they would be on file as official. Someone should be able to post this here.
Also from the book, “Beyond Reasonable Doubt” although Nelson Delgado thought Oswald’s shooting a big joke, “as a young recruit, however, he had done better. His rifle score book showed him making 48 and 49 points out of a possible 50 in rapid fire at 200 yards from a sitting position, without a telescopic sight.”
Oswald was tested twice in shooting while in the Marines, scoring 212 in December 1956 after a three-week long intensive course in rifles (slightly above the minimum for qualification as a sharpshooter – the intermediate category), but in May 1959 he scored only 191 (barely earning the lower designation of marksman – the lowest category of skilled shooter)
I wonder what his skill level was by 1963?
Lt. Col. Allison G. Folsom reviewed Oswald’s personnel files in front of the Warren Commission and assessed that at that point of his career Oswald was not a particularly outstanding shot. As an example, he mentioned a slow fire shooting test from a range of 200 yards in which “people should get a score of between 48 and 50” Oswald “got a score of 34 out of a possible 50” and a score of 38 out of 50 on the following day. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh8/html/WC_Vol8_0160a.htm
Also, the tests were not conducted using a manual bolt-action weapon such as CE-139
That’s still a skilled shooter, David. As you said, “The lowest category of skilled shooter.”
Yes, even hitting “marksman” at 191 is still considered a skilled shooter.
Had a talk with my husband who served in the military. It would have been after Oswald served but would think it hadn’t changed that much. He said in general he hit the sharpshooter range but wasn’t consistent, that he would fall back into the “marksman” range. The guys serving with him did much the same. In fact they would joke among themselves about it. Little sarcastic put downs. He remembered a few who would hit the “expert” category. Some with a little luck but a few of them actually expert shots. Those were a small percentage. Then know a close family friend of my parents who was a captain in the Marine Corp. At least he retired as one. This man served in Viet Nam, having troops in his charge. A high percentage of men serving under him had the marksman, sharpshooter designation and were qualified to serve in Viet Nam. So I also am wondering why David is so quick to “short change” these men. If Oswald was in this same range, he would have qualified “to serve his country”. His rifle skills were good enough.
Compare what Major Eugene Anderson, assistant head of the Marksmanship Branch of the U. S. Marine Corps testified against the words of Lt. Col Allison G. Folsom. “He testified that the shots that struck Kennedy’s neck and head were not “particularly difficult,” especially given how slowly the president’s motorcade was moving.”
” An FBI firearms specialist, Robert Frazier, told the commission that Oswald would “not have any difficult hitting” his targets, especially since his rifle had been equipped with a telescopic sight.” If Folsom was allowed to give his opinion than I’m sure that applies also to the ones I mentioned here. Thank you.
Also have found the reference mentioning Robert Oswald’s testimony concerning his brother’s shooting ability and where the idea that he was a poor shot possibly originated From the book, “Case Closed”, by Gerald Posner “The KGB file reveals that his fellow workers considered Oswald a poor shot when he failed to shoot a rabbit during his one hunting excursion.” Perhaps this was just a group of guys flexing their ego muscles. And they judged Oswald by only one hunting excursion. Now to Robert Oswald from the same source “After returning to the U.S., Oswald complained to his brother, Robert, that the firing pin on his rifle was defective.” Words from Robert Oswald “I went hunting with Lee plenty of times,” says Robert. ‘He was a good shot who always got his game.”
Robert Oswald only has historical mention if his brother was the actual assassin of President Kennedy. Why else would he attempt to strengthen the case against his “beloved” brother if it wasn’t the attention and fame that it brought to himself?
According to military records Lee Harvey Oswald was a mediocre shot at best.
There is no legitimate chain of custody linking that rifle, nor the bullets to Oswald.
It is proven that he was on the first floor of the TBDB at the time the shots were fired.
It is proven forensically that the shots that hit Kennedy in the throat and the head came from the front.
All of this chatter about Oswald’s marksmanship is much ado about nothing.
If you want to rely on the fiction of Posner’s work, that’s your prerogative. Lee and Robert’s hunting trips occurred in 1959 – 4 years before the assassination. His opinion does not jive with Oswald’s fellow Marines.
Lee Oswald and his brother Robert went on several hunting trips before Lee’s defection to the Soviet Union in 1959 (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.1, pp.325ff).http://22november1963.org.uk/lee-harvey-oswald-marksman-sharpshooter
And why isn’t Robert Oswald allowed his opinion? Why can’t family members join in on the debate with the host of strangers? Do you actually have proof that after he lost his brother he was only after fame and money? And much ado about nothing! Are you also saying here that the marines are mediocre at best? It’s made up of men who score in the marksmen and sharpshooter category and then go out and defend their country.
Robert Oswald testified as follows “He believed Lee had the skills with a rifle to kill Kennedy, especially since the president’s motorcade passed slowly in front of the Texas School Book Depository. Like his brother, Robert had served in the Marine Corps, and he knew that Lee had been rated as a competent marksman by his military trainers. Both brothers liked to hunt , and Robert said that Lee had told him about bird hunting trips he had taken while living in Russia.” So, his own brother was aware that Lee used a rifle outside of the Marine Corps. They hunted together and were in communication.
‘Richard Mosk began making plans to leave the commission’s staff in mid-August he had been called back to duty by the air national guard. Before departing, he completed a detailed study of Oswald’s marksmanship skills. He did not have trouble believing that Oswald had the ability to fire the shots that killed Kennedy and hit Connally. The Mannlicher Carcano rifle was “a very accurate weapon,”Mosk wrote.
‘Mosk reviewed the testimony taken from four expert marksmen, including that of Major Eugene Anderson, assistant head of the Marksmanship branch of the U. S. Marine Corps. He testified that the shots that struck Kennedy’s neck and head were not particularly difficult , especially given how slowly the president’s motorcade was moving. An FBI firearms specialist, Robert Frazier, told the commission that Oswald would “not have any difficult hitting” his targets, especially since his rifle had been equipped with a telescopic sight. A gunman would simply “put the crosshairs on the target” and pull the trigger.”
Found these quotes taken from the book by Philip Shenon, A Cruel And Shocking Act. Found them to be as quoted by Sammy so I won’t write them out myself.
David Regan wanted sources and they are here.
I came across this story for the first time recently. Perhaps it’s nothing, but yet another odd coincidence in this case of foreknowledge?
David, I can’t recall the names at the moment but I’ve read of a similar story though I don’t recall this detail’s you provided of the call.
The caller was the daughter of a Chicago newspaper columnist, Nationally read I think. His daughter died a suspicious death shortly afterward. Some suspected this was a message to him to not comment on the JFK Assassination.
Thanks Ronny, good to know. Makes you wonder when you take this into account with the stories of Rose Cheramie, Richard Case Nagell and Eugene Dinkins.
Karyn Kupcinet (March 6, 1941 – November 28, 1963) was an American stage, film and television actress. She was the only daughter of Chicago columnist and television personality Irv Kupcinet.
Kupcinet had a brief acting career during the early 1960s. Six days after the JFK assassination, her body was found at her West Hollywood, California home. It has been theorized that Kupcinet’s death, officially ruled a homicide, was connected to the assassination or was the result of an accidental fall. In the 1960s, Irv Kupcinet publicly dismissed the theories linking his daughter to the president’s death. In 1992 The Today Show referred briefly to her alleged connection to the assassination, which prompted Kupcinet to describe the television broadcast as “an atrocious outrage” and “calumny.” Karyn Kupcinet’s murder remains officially unsolved.
. . .
Alleged connection to JFK
Kupcinet’s death was first mentioned in connection with the assassination of JFK in 1967 by researcher Penn Jones, Jr. in the self-published book Forgive My Grief II. Jones claimed that an AP wire service story about an unidentified woman who placed a phone call on November 22, 1963 from Oxnard, California, approximately 50 miles north of Los Angeles, was Kupcinet. The woman, who dialed her local operator approximately 20 minutes before the shooting in Dallas, stated that he was going to be shot. Jones alleged that the caller was Kupcinet, attempting to warn someone of the impending assassination. Jones claimed that Kupcinet was told of the assassination by her father (who was allegedly told by Jack Ruby, whom he met in Chicago in the 1940s). Jones speculated that her death was a result of a mob hit to silence her and to send a message to Irv Kupcinet to remain silent about his knowledge.
Irv Kupcinet denied that he or his daughter had prior knowledge of the assassination. This was supported by Karyn Kupcinet’s friends, actor Earl Holliman, Holliman’s then-girlfriend, and Karyn’s boyfriend Andrew Prine, all of whom traveled to Palm Springs with Kupcinet on November 22. Kupcinet reportedly seemed upset and shocked about the assassination and did not reveal any foreknowledge of the event.
Penn Jones, Jr. made the Oxnard woman’s telephone call the basis of a claim that Karyn Kupcinet was murdered in order to silence her before she could release supposedly explosive information about the Kennedy assassination. However, as with the claimed telephone call itself, this assertion has been widely dismissed. No actual evidence of a connection between Karyn Kupcinet (or her father) and conspirators has ever been produced.
Thanks for sharing, Lysias. Would be interesting to find out what time she left for Palm Springs with her friends, given the call was traced to Oxnard. Quite intriguing it remains an unsolved homicide, as does Mary Pinchot Meyer.
So the plot thickens. Thanks Ronnie, will do some digging on Mary Ferrell’s site on this. This is the first I have seen this subject mentioned here, but perhaps Jeff could post something and see if more details are forthcoming.
John R-the source for the information I gave, about the fact that Tom Tilson’s day off was covered by JD Tippit is from the revised edition of Jim Marrs’ CROSSFIRE. He discusses the Tilson story on pages 316-318.
Looking back in hindsight, his fellow marines probably remembered his mistakes. They probably remembered his poor performance during training. But it’s the actual tests “for the record’ that count in the end. And, David, if I had served with him or knew him in any way, wouldn’t mention it here. CT buffs would discredit me on the spot if I didn’t agree with “their experts”.
Although Oswald had difficulty firing the M-1accurately during training, “on December 21st, when his company fired for the record, Lee not only qualified, but managed a a score of 212, two points above the threshold for a “sharpshooter”…..”
Oswald was tested twice in shooting while in the Marines, scoring 212 in December 1956 after a three-week long intensive course in rifles (slightly above the minimum for qualification as a sharpshooter – the intermediate category), but in May 1959 he scored only 191 (barely earning the lower designation of marksman – the lowest category of skilled shooter, but still above undesignated shooters).
The FBI documented their efforts to find anyone that could recall having seen Oswald practicing with his rifle. They focused on the area around the Trinity River because, although target shooting was forbidden by law in Dallas and Irving Texas, they were told that people did use that area. They were unable to find anyone that could identify Oswald and listed over 50 names of people questioned in that regard.
Marksman, 191, is still a good score, showing the shooter can hit a target. I’ve been told that hitting a target with a scope, like the one on the carcano, is not that difficult. And every shooter needs a little luck sometimes. Perhaps the shooter had a little luck that day. I learned to shoot a rifle at an early age and know you can’t always be consistent.
My Brother-in-law is a real marksman, a champion shooter at game matches. it is consistency that makes a true marksman.
Anyone trying to pass Oswald off as a good rifleman is pulling your leg.
let’s see….Oswald misses the General(Walker), yet scores on the right side of JFK’s head as the latter is in a driving car moving away from Oswald(albeit slowly by that time). Nahhhh, I don’t see it.
Oswald scored higher than your brother-in-law as a sharpshooter. Also read my comment about his scoring as a young recruit without a telescopic sight. Here I’m not saying he killed Kennedy, only that he had some integrity as a shooter. Why is it that some conspiracy buffs plead his innocence but make him look like a wimpy man as a result. He can’t seem to do anything without a handler, can’t think for himself, can’t make decisions. Anyone making Oswald look like such a loser is pulling your leg.
That’s exactly how Oswald was portrayed by the WC, Posner, Bugliosi, et al. (crazed loser and failure in life)
“Oswald scored higher than your brother-in-law as a sharpshooter.”
Sorry, but I was not referring to the official military designations when I was speaking to my brother-in-law’s abilities as a marksman. As I said he was a match-shooter having the abilities of a sniper.
Pointing out that Oswald was a lousy shot, is not saying that he was a “wimpy man as a result. He can’t seem to do anything without a handler, can’t think for himself, can’t make decisions.”
Such assumptions on your part are non sequitur, and do not make rational sense as an argument.
Hope I didn’t insult your brother-in-law. Certainly didn’t mean to. Sounds like he was quite an accomplished shooter.
Lt. Col. A.G. Folsom of the Marine Corp testified to the Warren Commission that Oswald’s score of 191 was just one point above the minimum for the “marksman” rating, the lowest of the three Marine Corp shooting proficiency classifications (marksman, sharpshooter, expert). Folsom testified that one scoring a low marksman rating was considered by the Marine Corp as a “rather poor shot.” WCR, p. 191.
Forgot to mention here that when tested he also scored 212 which qualified him as “sharpshooter”. Can’t just mention the 191.
‘As a young recruit, however, he had done better. His rifle score book showed him making 48 and 49 points out of a possible 50 in rapid fire at 200 yards from a sitting position, without a telescopic sight.”
‘Sergeant Zahn, one of Oswald’s trainers has confirmed Oswald’s ability with a rifle and described him as an excellent shot . In December 1956, at the end of his training, Oswald was tested and scored 212 …..”
Sammy, you are correct Oswald was tested twice in shooting while in the Marines, scoring 212 in December 1956 after a three-week long intensive course in rifles (slightly above the minimum for qualification as a sharpshooter – the intermediate category), but in May 1959 he scored only 191 (barely earning the lower designation of marksman – the lowest category of skilled shooter.
Rockefeller Foundation fellow Henry Hurt interviewed over fifty former Marine colleagues of Oswald’s and reported that “On the subject of Oswald’s shooting ability, there was virtually no exception to Delgado’s opinion that it was laughable…”
I did read in several sources that at least a few of his fellow marines thought he was a good shot or could be when he wanted to. I wonder why we never hear about this side of the story? Why are a group of fellow marines who downgrade his ability the only ones who count? Why are they more important than official records, family members and qualified experts on the subject?
Scoring officially as a marksman and sharpshooter is not laughable. The official records suggest that Oswald’s fellow marines, those laughing at his ability, may have been mistaken. There are too many officially designated “experts” in this field who gave their opinion on this matter. I prefer to trust them rather than a group of marines who may have been prejudice at the time they were interviewed.
Sammy, can you provide evidence of your “designated experts”. Regardless of what Oswald’s test scores were in 1956/1959, he wasn’t using a manual bolt-action weapon in the Marines.
But you forgot to mention other tests, some fairly recent, that proved just the opposite, that the rifle was capable of firing those shots.
Max, the 191 score was achieved 4 years prior to the assassination. There is no conclusive evidence to suggest Oswald practiced regularly after 1959. http://22november1963.org.uk/lee-harvey-oswald-marksman-sharpshooter
Thanks, David for proving that you have never done any target shooting.
How many people have to re-learn how to ride a bicycle after 5 years?
Your implication that regular practice is required to maintain the rifle proficiency exhibited by Oswald at Dealey Plaza is completely bogus-and reflective of your ignorance of firearms and the ability to use them.
As an example, my father had not done any significant target shooting for 20 years before re-entering the Naval Reserves at age 64. Four months later at the first available qualifying round he was able to shoot accurately enough to get not only a Rifle Expert medal, but a Pistol Expert medal. The only practice he had was a few warm-up shots the same day.
When Oswald cared he was a crack shot. His Marine Corps firing records prove that conclusively . Only those ignorant of USMC rifle training hold a contrary view.
I’m not max but there is also no conclusive evidence that he didn’t practice after 1959. No conclusive evidence that he didn’t.
That’s great for your father, Photon, but hardly proves your point. Are you trying to say your theory applies across the board for all individuals? I suppose you think pro athletes acquire and maintain their skill level without regular practice?
As for your opinion on Oswald’s skill, it is not corroborated by virtually all of his fellow Marines. I suppose he had an off say on April 10th, 1963?
Right Sammy, but you don’t think if Oswald had lived to see trial the onus would not be on the prosecution to prove their case beyond reasonable doubt? The WC certainly failed at this, even though they had free reign to print hearsay evidence with Oswald dead and buried.
Why would it even be important to establish whether or not Lee Oswald was doing any practice shooting at this point in time? He probably had nothing planned and no reason to do any serious practicing. As a lone gunman, on his own, he had no idea that he would be working at the Book Depository in Dallas or that President Kennedy would definitely be coming through Dallas and past the Depository. It might have just been at the back of his mind that if he ever had the opportunity………. Just as years before he had mentioned to a good friend that he might like to shoot Eisenhower because he was exploiting the working people. Just an idea at this point, not anything concrete. If he was the lone gunman, it would have been more of a spur of the moment act, an opportunity that came almost unexpectedly. He wouldn’t have seriously thought to practice, not knowing what the future had in store. For him it was more of an emotional experience than something logical. On the other hand, if he was going to take part in a planned conspiracy, all the more reason to practice.
Go to YouTube to see the video” 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, 6 shots in 5.1 seconds” and tell me why your quoted article is nothing but complete BS put out by a phony “expert”
This same “expert” published another article in the Telegraph claiming that George Patton was assassinated by the OSS.David, how can we trust the veracity of any of your claims when your sources can be so easily proven unreliable?
Care to explain why this “crack” shot Oswald MISSED everything on the first and supposedly easiest shot of the three? I have been on the 6th floor of the TSBD and from where Oswald was reported to be and how he missed EVERYTHING—car, people, except Tague if you believe the “official” report—EVERYTHING—is a mystery that has yet to be explained. From where Oswald was reported to be, you could literally spit on JFK’s limousine as it approached and then rounded the corner.
DO NOT give me the BS about the sign or the tree deflecting the shot—UNLESS you can provide US with a picture from your beloved FBI or DPD that shows that happening. Because if Oswald is as skilled as you say, there is NO way that he would have missed that easy of a shot, or allowed a tree or sign to get in his way.
Do YOU have proof, Photon? Or just conjecture?
Never shot at a man, have you Steve? Please document any reputable study that proves every that marksman makes his first shot, without exception.
Why didn’t he hit his target with the second shot,too?
How can we trust the veracity of ANY of your claims when all you do is recite the WC—the very same commission that two staffers, Slawson and Shaffner now state—on this website, is NOT accurate due to the fact that key pieces of evidence were withheld from them?
The reason your sources can not be so easily proven wrong is they are able to hide behind the guise of national security, the evidence needed in this case has been routinely destroyed, misplaced OR not collected in the first place. You have the advantage. People like David have to depend on filing lawsuits using the FOIA, even though the WC was not given the power to classify anything. As you have said many times, it is very hard to prove a negative. However, you ask the other side to do that ALL of the time.
No, never shot a man. NEVER going to shoot a man.
That WAS not my question and I am not going to let you off the hook. You said LHO was a “crack” marksman “when he cared.” I would assume that he CARED very much when he shot JFK out of the hatred that you believe he had. Well, how did he miss when he could have spit on him from that window? Don’t try and weasel out of the question. Unless you can provide this website some tangible proof that he hit a tree branch or the sign post, then maybe your ‘ignorant” comment to David should be rescinded.
I have been times—to the TSBD and the first shot was, by far, the easiest. He was, according to you, a “crack shot.” How do those two together? A “crack” shot missing out on the easiest opportunity?
If you are going to try and smear other people and their views, then you are doing everyone on this site a disservice. If someone is wrong, you can give your point of view without being insulting.
No one—including YOU—knows all of the facts of this case. NO ONE. You read verbatim from the WC. As you know, the members of the WC don’t believe what they wrote. Two of them are on this website, Slawson and Shaffner. An open discussion is needed and necessary. We did NOT get that in 1963. Maybe we can in 2015.
The reason why my sources cannot be easily proven wrong is because they are correct.
Prove me wrong. I have had no trouble debunking myths and falsehoods on this site-because I have an advantage. It is called the truth -backed up by cold,dispassionate evidence that only be refuted by claiming that it is faked. When your theories are based on a predetermined conclusion not supported by any objective evidence you can’t prove that anything that you claim is true simply by claiming contrary evidence is not genuine.
I have NEVER seen a source from you except the WC, from which you read verbatim. You never back up anything WITHOUT the use of the WC. You answer what you want to, and when you can’t, you hide for a little bit until you can pounce on someone using your so called “sources.” What a bunch of BS. You use Lattimer as an expert? Unless JFK had trouble with urination, I am not sure of his significance. The FBI? Oh yeah, rock solid! You have no explanation why LHO missed the first and easiest shot, but then said David was ignorant about firearms. You call out Jean Hill, but won’t address Richard Helms and his lying. You pick and choose when you want to use facts, and when you have to result to insults. You won’t even use your real name, but you assure us you have expertise in “several” areas. If that is truly the case, put out your credentials. Otherwise, you lack credibility. Anyone can read the WR verbatim. It takes a little more to discuss the parts of the case that your beloved WC refused to cover or did not delve into because of the bogus national security issue.
Care to answer some questions that are not in the WR? Because if it is truly and open and shut case, and it has really been solved, there are still a lot of issues and people who remain skeptical.
Steve, can you precisely tell us when Oswald took the first shot? How do you know it was easy? At the point in time that is most likely for the first shot Oswald faced a target at the most extreme downward angle with probably the most lateral translational movement during the entire shooting sequence. If he didn’t want to expose himself it was probably the most difficult shot, despite your perceptions. I agree that he could have hit JFK with a snowball at that distance- his best shot might have been down Houston directly into JFK’s face.But he would have been exposed.it is apparent to me that you have had little if any experience in rifle shooting-you make assumptions that are simply not justified, particularly from the sitting position that was Oswald’s best shooting position.
My comment about shooting a man reflects how difficult it can be to pull the trigger accurately at another person-particularly when one has time to think.Until you fire that first round you are not committed-even assassins can hesitate and let emotions affect accuracy. Look at Oswald’s history-he missed the first shot on Walker, missed the first shot on JFK, probably thought that he had missed the second shot as JFK was still sitting upright with no visible sign of being hit from Oswald’s perch. By the time he ran into Tippit he had crossed the Rubicon and had become a killer. Obviously he himself didn’t have confidence he would hit JFK with the first round-he loaded the entirety of his remaining 6.5 mm ammo into the Carcano on Nov. 22.
But let’s look at the first shot successes of other 20th century Presidential assassins. Was FDR hit by the first round when Mayor Cermak was killed? Was he hit by any rounds? Sara Jane Moore got off a round at Ford.Why did she miss? John Hinckley got off a bunch of rounds at Reagan-and never hit him ( Reagan was wounded by a ricochet off of a car door). Why should Oswald be any different?
Let me ask YOU again, since you have chosen to throw stones at everyone that you find objectionable to the “official” report. How is Jean Hill’s changing story ANY different from Richard Helms’ changing story? Doesn’t Mr. Helms have the GREATER responsibility to tell the TRUTH? Ms. Hill WAS standing on the curb when the president was struck. Her story probably did change over the years, as she was recalling an event that took what, 3 or 4 seconds to occur?
Mr. Helms had what, 10 or 20 YEARS—let me repeat that, YEARS, to review evidence and photos and agent reports and 201′s etc. Yet, he LIED up to the day he died.
So, let me ask you AGAIN. Where is YOUR outrage at Helms when you consider ALL the facts? Or, is it easier to throw stones at Ms. Hill to avoid TRULY looking at the role of the CIA in this case?
Would you care to use the same standards for EVERYONE in this case?
Sorry, Steve but my answer has been censored. I thought that it was a pretty good reply but the moderators thought otherwise.
As it appears that my presence here will not be tolerated there is no point in continuing to post.
Photon, could you please point out which comment of yours has been censored? And, while we’re at it, would you be so good as to provide a working email address so we can contact you about such things? Thanks
Let me answer YOUR questions directly. I have NO idea when the first shot occurred. It keeps changing, depending on which person you listen to and whether he/she believes in the WC or a second shooter. Do YOU know when the first shot occurred? Can you give me proof, so I can look for myself?
According to you, Oswald was a “crack” shot when he cared. I am PRETTY sure he cared when he was shooting at the president. The other people you mentioned—and I do not know this for a fact—were probably NOT in the Marine Corp and a “deadly marksman” as you have described LHO. I am pretty sure Ms. Moore never spent the time practicing as much as the WC would have us believe that LHO did. LHO also had the advantage of being 6 floors up, where his vantage point would be greatly improved. And, if the WR is to be believed, LHO had ample time to ready himself for that first shot. The fact that he was firing at another man was probably addressed during his stint in the MC. Again, I have never been in the MC, but I would believe that the training prepares you to fire at anything—living or non-living.
The LHO “nervous” scenario would make it harder for me to believe that when he was questioned 90 seconds after the shooting he appeared calm and relaxed, according to WC testimony, acting as if nothing had happened. Let me guess—shooting and killing the president and then walking down four flights of stairs had given him the time he needed to compose himself? Nervous and apprehensive before the shooting, then nerves of Clint Eastwood after the fact?
Now, would YOU care to answer MY question about your attack of Ms. Hill and YOUR refusal to issue the same condemnation of Mr. Helms?
According to you, Ms. Hill’s story changed through the years. So did Mr. Helms. The difference is.
For what it is worth. I hope you will ALWAYS continue to post on this website. We disagree on several points, but the whole point of this is to have the debate that should have taken place in 1963. LBJ and the government screwed us once we should not let that happen again. Mr. Morley has been kind enough to give us an opportunity and YOU must participate. YOU are a part of the process, and I think your input is CRUCIAL and NEEDED.
Free speech is VITAL to our rapidly declining democratic principles. I CERTAINLY hope you will change your mind about posting here.
My comments were not posted as rapidly as I thought they would be-my apologies to the moderator.
Oswald never shot anybody in the Marine Corps(except accidentally himself).He never shot at anybody in the Marine Corps. The one time that we believe he shot at another person he missed-probably because it was dark, he was shooting through a window and his target moved just as he shot. But he could have easily taken another shot if he was truly committed. For that reason alone we could see how the first shot might be affected be things outside of his marksmanship ability.
You think that the first shot would be the easiest , yet you admit that you do not know when that first shot was taken. How can you know how easy the shot was when you do not know when Oswald fired it?
Actually Moore practiced with her pistol more than Oswald is known to have practiced with his rifle. Probably the main reason she missed Ford was because she was not using the pistol that she normally practiced with. She was also much closer to Ford that Oswald was to JFK.
I am GLAD you are back and posting. You are needed in this debate.
Let me ask you. When did Oswald fire the first shot? If it was when the limo was rounding the corner, then I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that he missed EVERYTHING. That would indicate an extreme lack of accuracy. I think we can both agree that the first shot—whenever it was—was the easiest of the three. I have been down there and I KNOW how close the building is to the street.
Your turn: where is your outrage at CIA’s Helms lying as compared to your mentioning of Hill’s changing story?
Helms has nothing to do with the assassination of JFK.
Until you can prove any association with any aspect of the JFK assassination his false statements to Congress on matters not associated with this case are simply not relevant. If anything, his attempts to obfuscate the actions against Castro not only protected the confidentiality of a government program, but also the reputation of the author of that program-John Kennedy. Helms never acted without instructions from above.
Your reply is the single BIGGEST stretching of the truth that you have ever posted on this website. THE SINGLE BIGGEST EVER!
There are so many falsehoods in what you have written, it would take me 1500 words to respond, and we are limited to 500.
1. Helms never did a thing without orders from above? Then explain why JFK wanted to splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces? And why did he fire Dulles? Are you kidding? The CIA has ALWAYS done what it wants, regardless of the president. Iran-Contra? If Reagan’s testimony is to be believed, much more was done without his knowledge that he EVER authorized. I could give you several more examples, but I have already given you book titles to add to your library in earlier posts.
2. If Helms is really covering for JFK, why not release proof of that being the case? Both men are dead. Why not show the world the proof?
3. You want ME to show you proof of Helms involvement? It is taking a LAWSUIT by the man who runs this WEBSITE through the FOIA to get those documents released. What would you like me to do? Plan and execute a sneak attack against Langley?
4. Have you read Mr. Morley’s article titled “What Jane Roman Said?” Have you read his book “Our Man in Mexico?” If you have, then you know what you have written about Helms non-involvement is disingenuous. Not only was he involved in JFK’s assassination, he was up to his eyeballs in the cover-up. You and I both know that to be true.
5. Helms, Fitzgerald, Angleton and Philips are guilty of perjury. You and I both know that to be true. The reason they escaped prosecution is because they served under two of the most corrupt presidents that were ever elected to office—LBJ and RMN.
There is NO difference between Hill and her changing story and Helms and his lying. As far as I know, Hill never testified under oath. Helms did. And he lied under oath. So, there is ONE major difference. Helms should have had the title of “prisoner” added to his book The Man who Kept the Secrets.
Here is a CIA “nugget” for you to ponder:
“A similar maneuver occurred during the Warren Commission investigation, when the original CIA liaison to the Warren Commission, John Whitten, was replaced by James Angleton, the CIA’s counter-intelligence chief whose office handled (or mishandled) the original reporting about Oswald’s defection to the Soviet Union.
When reports came in about Oswald entering the American embassy in Moscow and asking to renounce his citizenship, the information went to the various intelligence repositories in Washington. The FBI issued a FLASH warning to be placed on Oswald if he tried to reenter the country under a false name. After all, the possibility existed that the KGB could have turned him into a spy.
However, at the CIA, the information about Oswald was not acted on immediately or with the normal protocol. A routine 201 form, which catalogues anyone of interest to the Agency, was not filled out on Oswald at that time. Nor did the information go to the Soviet Russia division. Instead, the Oswald notice was funneled to James Angleton’s super-secret, CI/SIG unit, a protective agency that was supposed to be on guard against penetration agents but has been connected to some of the CIA’s most convoluted deep-cover operations, sometimes called “the wilderness of mirrors.” (John Newman, Oswald and the CIA, p. 27)”
Exactly what does that have to do with Richard Helms planning and executing the assassination of JFK? You have stated( with zero proof) that Richard Helms was involved in the assassination of JFK. You have also alleged ( again with zero proof) that he participated in a felonious cover-up. If Helms were alive it hose comments could be libelous (although the discovery process would preclude a trial).
You don’t need 1500, 500 or even 50 words to point out any falsehoods that I have posted. When Kennedy said he was going to ” break the CIA into a thousand pieces” ( if he actually ever said it) he actually set up the process for Helms to be promoted. And exactly who in the CIA aside from Dulles actually were kicked out?
Care to comment on exactly how I am supposed to gain access to the records of Helms and his group? Care to comment on why Mr. Morley has filed a lawsuit against the CIA? Care to comment about Angleton and his actions?
You expect me to provide you with proof when Blakey and Slawson—two men with FAR more information in this case than you or I have said that the CIA consistently and continually lied and withheld relevant information? Would YOU like to help me coordinate and plan a middle of the night raid on Langley so we can settle this for good?
How exactly is stating that Helms lied open to a libelous lawsuit? That could be interesting. Mr. Morley, who has expressed similar views, Mr. Blakey, and Mr. Slawson and myself would certainly have to be given access to ALL relevant documents, which I am sure would make the CIA EXTREMELY nervous.
Remind me, how did Allen Dulles, a man Kennedy had fired after Kennedy realized that he was set up to fail in the Bay of Pigs by Dulles and his friends, wind up on the WC? Do you really think a man who was just fired would/could be impartial in a case this crucial? If your boss had fired you, would you want him/her to have anything to do with any part of your life (or death)?
Steve, how can you possibly accuse Helms of being involved in the assassination of JFK when the only evidence you have is what ” might ” be in unreleased CIA files? You have let your negative views of the CIA take you to conclusions completely unsupported by any objective fact.
The only CIA involvement that I see in this case is the usual attempts at presenting in the best possible light an operational failure-inadequate monitoring of a returned defector that in hindsight should have been more extensive, although as he had never demonstrated violent tendencies their options were limited.The same goes for the FBI, particularly after Oswald warned them to stop talking to his wife.
The point I tried to make with the Ford comment was that the Kennedy family had no problems with him, despite being in a different party at the opposite end of the spectrum.How is that compatible with Ford not wanting to reach the truth concerning their family member.
For Photon: “Who else in the CIA was actually forced out?” Along with Allen Dulles, Richard Bissell and Charles Cabell were fired after the Bay of Pigs. How could YOU not know that?
Photon, surely you are astute enough to be aware that along with Allen Dulles, JFK turfed out Deputy Director for Plans Richard Bissell and Deputy Director Charles Cabell in November 1961 after the scathing ‘Survey of the Cuban Operation’ Report. It’s worth nothing that Gen. Charles Cabell was brother of Earle Cabell mayor of Dallas.
A rhetorical question . I believe that Bissell got a lateral transfer and Cabell didn’t get dumped until the following year. But the point was that aside from some deadwood at the top, the agency certainly wasn’t smashed into a thousand pieces, it wasn’t smashed at all-and came out of the BOP with increased budgets,increased responsibilities and increased size.
That certainly does not conform with the claim that JFK and the CIA were at odds. Because they weren’t-JFK always liked how clandestine warfare on the cheap was less messy and more economical than beefing up the military-even though he did that, too.
This coming from a man who thought it was “no big deal” JFK was seeking détente with the Soviets, a joint lunar mission, and nuclear disarmament. I’m sure the CIA got the warm fuzzies over all this, especially after the Bay of Pigs, plans to de-escalate Vietnam and secret rapprochement efforts with Castro.
Sorry Photon, but your YT video is a joke. Was the target moving and we don’t even see how accurate his shots were, nor was this person kneeling with the rifle on a windowsill shooting from above.
From Oswald’s vantage point his target wasn’t moving either-just getting smaller. Probably the reason why he took the shots he did-he didn’t have to move the rifle.
The score was 6 out of 6 at a 10 inch target at 120 yards-further away than any shot Oswald took.
It conclusively proves that the CT claims about the Carcano being an inaccurate weapon that could not be fired fast enough to accomplish the assassination are nothing but lies.
It wasn’t so easy for the expert marksmen in the CBS and Warren Commission reenactment tests.
I wonder if anyone has taken this into consideration. Kennedy had a bad back and was supposedly wearing a back brace when riding in the limo. I’m not sure this can be proven beyond a doubt despite someone saying he was. However, saw this again in the book, “The anatomy Of Motive”…..”Another was that the President was wearing a brace for his bad back. Had he not been, he might have been thrown forward by the first bullet and out of the critical line of fire.” The idea is that his wearing a back brace could have affected his movement after being hit.
Yes, that “back brace” into account. People seem to assume that this was some kind of metallic/plastic contraption that held him rigidly upright. It was actually just an elastic band that fit around his waist, very much like a larger version of those braces you put on your knee. It just fits a bit snugly and adds support to the muscles around the base of the spine. Hard to believe this could have had the effect Single Bullet Theory advocates insist it did.
Had forgotten about that back brace but knew he had a painful back problem. Noticed that he was sometimes a bit stiff in his movements. Can’t imagine making it such a light issue as Fearfaxer does here. Why wear it if it really wasn’t so much?? It was meant to support someone’s back, relieving some of the pain. It definitely makes a difference in someone’s body movements.
If that’s the case, then when Jackie wore a girdle, she’d have been unable to bend at the waist.
That brace would not have restricted Kennedy’s movements to the extent you Lone Nut Buff’s pretend. If he’d been hit by a bullet from behind, it would not have been capable of preventing him pitching forward.
Because it would.
The brace was anchored to his pelvis with intertwined ACE wrap elastic bandages to help restrict movement of the lower back-as mentioned in medical reports from the Parkland ER.
The same type of back brace was custom fitted to individual patients and was a common medical appliance in the 1960s.
I saw where Photon was questioning Dr. Joseph Dolce’s bona fides. Apparently, he/she didn’t realize that Eisenberg’s memos on the WC’s showing of the Zapruder film reflect that “Dr. Joseph Dolce, Consultant to the Biophysics Division at Edgewood Arsenal’ was in attendance and that “In a discussion after the conference, Drs. Light and Dolce expressed themselves as being very strongly of the opinion that Connally had been hit by two different bullets, principally on the ground that the bullet recovered from Connally’s stretcher could not have broken his radius without having suffered more distortion. Dr. Oliver withheld a conclusion until he has had the opportunity to make tests on animal tissue and bone with the actual rifle.”
This begs the question, if Dolce wasn’t an expert, why was he at this conference and why was he consulted afterwards? Jeez.
How accurate is that description? The only description of Dolce’s position in the official record is as head of the Biochemistry division Who is right?
The fact is that Dolce’s belief that a Carcano bullet could not do the damage it did without being more disrupted is simply not true-as has been experimentally proven several times since the Assassination. Apparently he could not understand that a round that had been significantly slowed down would not exhibit upon hitting bone the same physical effect.
“I saw where Photon was questioning Dr. Joseph Dolce’s bona fides. Apparently, he/she didn’t realize that Eisenberg’s memos on the WC’s showing of the Zapruder film reflect that “Dr. Joseph Dolce, Consultant to the Biophysics Division at Edgewood Arsenal’ was in attendance and that “In a discussion after the conference, Drs. Light and Dolce..”
Photon does not address the point of Pat’s comment here, which is the fact that Dolce was involved with the WC showing of the Zapruder film as ‘Consultant to the Biophysics Division at Edgewood Arsenal’.
Rather Photon regurgitates the assertion “Apparently he could not understand that a round that had been significantly slowed down would not exhibit upon hitting bone the same physical effect.”
This is nothing more than Photon’s opinion that Dolce doesn’t understand something so elementary as the slowing down of the bullet after going through so many other flesh and bone barriers – which then leads to the critique of Fackler, who does NOT address these other flesh and bone barriers, but merely loads bullets lightly for his experiments, not accounting for the other work the actual magic bullet would have to have done.
To throw a “photonism” back across the table, as far as relevance in expertise:
How does a specialist in urology give one credence in ballistics?
Lattimer was a professor and chairman of the urology department at Columbia University College for 25 years.
When one is an expert on the historical aspects of Presidential assassinations, as Lattimer was-at least to the level that the Kennedy family selected him to be one of the first researchers to gain access to the autopsy records,photos and x-rays.
“an expert on the historical aspects of Presidential assassinations”
And that makes Lattimer an expert in ballistics in your view does it? grin
For your pleasure Photon, some actual real analysis and facts…
So, let me ask you a direct question. How is Hill, Craig, Crenshaw, etc. ANY different from Helms, Fitzgerald, Philips, Angleton?? Where is your condemnation of those jokers? I have never heard you utter a PEEP about their lies and “changing stories?”
Isn’t hypocrisy anywhere hypocrisy everywhere.
To assess this Magic Bullet theory completely, we must begin at Parkland Hospital and the first view of the throat wound. This was determined at the time to be a wound of entry because of its small diameter.
This small entry wound was then expanded by Dr Perry with a tracheotomy, and then further as he attempted to track the bullet and see if any tendons had been severed by the bullet.
If this throat injury was a wound of entry, the whole discussion on the Magic Bullet is a mute point.
The autopsy physicians did not even know this wound was a bullet injury until later that night when they spoke with Dr Perry on the phone (Audry Bell testified to the HSCA investigators Horne and Gunn, that she had heard this conversation from Perry’s end that night – not the next morning as the official WC version would have it)
Concurrently, the doctors at Parkland never discovered the wound in Kennedy’s back. Another wound of entry.
Now we have two wounds, neither of which was allowed to be tracked due to the intervention of general officers during the autopsy. This is the critical point. No one knows the terminal trajectory of the missiles that caused these wounds.
So the postulation for the Magic Bullet begins on an unknown, and everything from this point forward is conjecture.
Readers can review the argument of this thread themselves to determine what the internal ballistics to transition ballistics, to external ballistics can inform us of. But the terminal ballistics are an unknown and can only be surmised by other avenues of inquiry.
Willy, it was never determined to be a wound of entry-even Perry said it could be a wound of entry or exit. He felt that his initial comments at the first press conference were misinterpreted by individuals ignorant of standard medical practices and descriptions as such he was reluctant to discuss any further issues with the press. That is a matter of public record.
The Audry Bell claims are absolute BS, as anybody who has ever worked in an operating or recovery room knows-an OR nurse supervisor runs the schedule, not the case. It would be highly unlikely that any surgeon would discuss any aspect of a case with her-she was not involved and it would be a gross violation of patient confidentiality issues-issues that were of significant concern to Dr. Perry. Had the Parkland doctors turned JFK over and discovered the back wound the initial perception that the throat wound was one of entrance may never had been made-another unfortunate complication of an inadequate and incomplete exam in the ER.
To claim that bullet ballistics are determined during a rushed and incomplete 12 minute ER evaluation when the legal and medical standards for those determinations are and have always been based on post mortem examination is simply irrational -and wrong.
However, what you fail to mention is that the three people who SHOULD have done a thorough and COMPLETE examination of the bullet holes and trajectories, etc DID NOT do even close to an adequate job. We have gone over this before—Finck said—I believe it was in the Shaw trial—that he was told NOT to dissect the throat wound but “could not remember who gave that order.”
Please don’t give me the usual “it’s not necessary to dissect bullet wounds’ BS. This was the POTUS and this was a MURDER of the POTUS. The very LEAST that was demanded was as thorough and complete examination as could be had by the three individuals.
I believe Willy is as close to correct as anyone when he mentions the word conjecture in regards to the “magic bullet.” The choice of Humes, Boswell, and Finck might be one of the worst decisions that has ever been made in this country—and that is saying a TON.
If Ms. Hill did carry around business cards that indicated she was the closest witness to the assassination, shouldn’t Mr. Helms had business cards printed that indicated that he lied EVERY time he was called to give information about the assassination? Shouldn’t your outrage at Helms’ behavior match your incredulousness of Hill’s behavior?
Photon and others claim that the neck wound was never determined to be a wound of entry, but that is certainly how the Parkland doctors thought of it. While Drs. Carrico and Perry told the Warren Commission that the neck wound was compatible with either a wound of entry or exit, they never expressly stated that it was not a wound of entry. Indeed, Dr. Perry testified to the ARRB in 1998 that “actually it [the neck wound] looked like an entrance wound.” (ARRB Deposition, p. 53). Dr. Baxter testified to the Warren Commission that the neck wound was a very small spherical wound and that “judging from the caliber of the rifle that we later found or became acquainted with, this would more resemble a wound of entry.” 7 WCH 42. Dr. Jones’ initial medical report of 11/22/63 stated that the neck wound was “thought to be a bullet entrance wound.” Dr. Jones testified to the ARRB in 1998 that when he and Dr. Perry went back upstairs on 11/22/63 after JFK’s death, “we were both talking in terms that this [neck wound] was an entrance wound.” Indeed, Dr. Jones testified to the ARRB that “[i]t never crossed my mind that was anything but an entrance wound.” (Jones Deposition, pp., 54-55). When pressed by Specter during his Warren Commission testimony to back off of this conclusion, Dr. Jones testified that IF the neck wound were a wound of exit, the bullet producing that clean exit wound would had to have exited at a very low velocity to produce the minimum damage observed. For the neck wound to be an exit wound, Dr. Jones testified that the bullet would had to have “barely made it through the soft tissues and just enough to drop out on the opposite side.” 7 WCH 55. Such a bullet could not have continued on to smash into Connally, fracture (pulverize) his rib, fracture his radius bone and deposit into his thigh. Dr. Peters testified to the Warren Commission that “we [the Parkland doctors] all discussed” JFK’s wounds and “we saw the wound of entry in the throat and noted the large occipital wound” and, based upon these observations and their experience, came to the “honest impression” that the neck wound was a wound of entry, with the bullet or a fragment from it deflecting upward off the cervical spine and exiting from the right rear of JFK’s head, producing the large avulsive blow out exit wound of the right occipitoparietal area of the head. 7 WCH 71. This was their best explanation of the events if one bullet had produced all the wounds, and was compatible with their clear impression that the large, gaping, avulsive occipital head wound was a wound of exit. They did not see see the wound in JFK’s upper back, but this wound was superficial and did not extend in depth beyond the length of Humes’ finger as he probed the back wound during the autopsy, concluding verbally that there was no exit for the back wound, as reported by FBI agents Sibert and O’Neill.
On Jean’s comment on “Consensus” further up-thread:
“The SBT may seem to defy common sense but numerous experts have supported the SBT as the most probable solution. If there were a better explanation it seems to me there should be a consensus among the critics by now on an alternate shooting scenario, but there isn’t. That’s very telling, imo.”
There should be a “consensus”? This is false reasoning. It is precisely because the critics of the Warren Commission are individual investigators that they do not have an organized consensus that is put forward as dogma.
I could give you my personal alternative shooting scenario, but it may vary with what other individuals might find more compelling.
Consensus is a false paradigm, it is always temporary, changing as new information enters the arena. As that new information is assessed by individuals, there will be agreements and disagreements as to how it fits into a general shared point of view. That is the real dynamic of human intellectual intercourse. It is only the dogmatic and regimented mind that seeks some permanent consensus despite the movement through time space and knowledge thereof.
Now what has happened is that “forensic” experts have reproduced a planted bullet, likely recreated using similar methods used to create the original planted prop.
So we now have this phony CE#399 and all its phony step children on display receiving hosannas and praise by the true believers in the WC Report.
It is Kafkaesque, but never mind that, their bible tells them so.
THE IMPOSSIBLE ONE DAY JOURNEY OF CE 399
By Jim DiEugenio (with help by J. Edgar Hoover)
Simple question – Would any prosecutor put this man on the stand in a trial of LHO, DAP, or any alleged conspirator? I doubt it.
The defense would have a field day with him. He’d be laughed out of the courtroom and the judge would call for a mistrial.
Can we stick to the facts and ignore those speaking from the gravel pits of the world? People like this do a massive disservice to serious and creditable JFK researchers.